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How did you build trust with the disputants?
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Angel Alderete
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
Question:
How did you do that?
Answer:
Sitting down and meeting with them, especially with the
gang-type kids.
Going into the African American community, I needed to go to this old abandoned outdoor
shopping mall that
had had its heyday from World War II until about 1970 or so. It was right near a park, and the
kids began hanging
around there -- the Latinos, especially. I'm not saying that the African American kids didn't hang
around parks,
but the Latinos' turf was really the parks. So it was going out
there and meeting with these guys. Now, I wasn't about to
go out there and meet with these kids on my own immediately, because it would've taken years to
get any kind
of relationship going. So I got together with the
gang workers, and they would then take me to these guys and say, "Hey, this guy's doing this. He
wants to work with you because he understands this is happening. Tell him about it." Pretty
soon, the
whole problem was boiled down to cops. Cops, cops, cops. So I said, "Well, I'm going to see
what we can do
about that."
Efrain
Martinez
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
How were you able to
get the parties to trust you or to buy into your process, what
were the special techniques you used?
Answer:
Starting cold, if I came in here, I'd have gone into your
office, I would have looked at what you have around you cause
that's important to you. If you have pictures of your family,
I'd ask you about your kids and I'd tell you about my kids. I'd
tell you where I've been and what I've done lately. The town,
I'd tell you about the temperature of the town. And there's
always something there. Try to find that.
Question:
And what did you [unknown]?
Answer:
Because it's so hot down there, it takes certain fortitude and strength to be out there on
a boat eight hours a day, the sun beating on you and the boat
rocking all the time. So what I did
the first time I went there, I went to the dock I just sat
there for two hours, to try to understand what makes a person be here, when
they could be doing some other job. I just asked them why. I
showed an interest in their situation, in their lives. It's just
human interaction. We're all human beings, so they see my
humanity and I see their humanity. Now we can work.
I can't
just go up and say, "Hey, I'm from the government and I'm here to help
you," you know that old line. When you walk into a sheriff's
office let's say, you walk differently. Wear my other boots, the
ones that make a sound, they're more like semi cowboy boots, wear
my suit, pinstripe probably, blue tie, walk in there like you belong.
Take a different position, ask some tough questions,
but in a very friendly manner, and at some point they'll know
you're not there to investigate them. You're not there to
prosecute them, you're not there to do them harm so that they have to
watch out and look out and be careful what they tell you. The
more comfortable they feel with you, the more they'll tell you.
That's the only way to help them because you have to understand
their reality. Their reality from their point of view. That's the
only way you can understand them, to try to help them resolve their own problems.
Werner
Petterson
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
Question:
And actually that's my next question, how important
was it for you to gain the trust of the parties?
Answer:
Oh well, you know probably in almost all cases there's an outsider and you're always faced
with that because in most cases people don't know you. At this particular time, and at any time
over the history of CRS being a representative of the Justice Department, you were always
suspect by somebody and it would depend on the community, depend on the times that would
shift, who was particularly suspicious about who you were. The way that you overcome that is
just by sitting down and talking with people and demonstrating to them you're committed, you're
involved in helping them find a solution. You can be answering questions people have concerns
about, if they have any, what they see as leniency on one side or the other. If you try to clear that
up they will come to trust you, but it takes some work and preparation. I think over time as they
see that you're there to be of help, there are no suspicions about where your commitments are.
It's only over a period of time that as people get to know you, those sorts of suspicions get to be
set aside.
Question:
What were some specific trust-
building strategies or activities that you used when either race, ethnicity, gender, or CRS
affiliation was an issue?
Answer:
I would find someone from whatever the community it might be and in this particular
situation it was in the black and the white community. I knew that if I would involve the
community in this process it would be helpful to have people within the community who knew
me, to introduce me to people and become a bridge and to be a patron of what was happening.
And in that particular case there was a prominent State Legislator that I had known for many
years and he was well loved in the community and became my bridge into that community.
There were parts of the community that I needed to have some access to. It was also true on the
other side that we were going to want the business community leaders in particular cities to be
committed because in this particular city nothing happened unless a "blue book business" leader
was being alarmed. So again, it was through someone I had met in the city, in another case, that
became the bridge into that organization where I could go over there and speak and talk about
what I was trying to do. I could win their support that if we could reach an agreement it was
going to be something the business community was going to support.
Will Reed
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
Question:
So how did you build trust with her?
Answer:
Well, initially, during the course of our discussions and conversations, she would ask me
about various
individuals that I might have known around the country -- around the United States. Eventually, I
realized
that she had contacted some of these individuals to find out whether or not their perception of me
was
consistent with what I was telling her. In other words, she wanted to determine whether I was
lying to her
about certain people that we both happened to know throughout the country. It appears that for
the most
part, I came out okay, because she later perceived me as being a "straight shooter," an honest
individual.
And as a result, she slowly began to think that I was a creditable person. After she felt that I was
of some
credibility, she began to share certain agendas with me, hoping that she could trust me with her
desires
for the Indian community in the present and in the future.
So I went home from our initial meeting, and about two weeks later I returned. I got off the
plane, I
drove to the hotel and after being there for about a half-hour, I received a phone call and learned
that Alice
had planned, for that evening, a meeting at the local Indian center. About four hundred people
had
gathered in a gym that was part of a poverty program called Opportunities, Inc. The Indians'
major social
life and business life and everything else was run right out of that building, and I didn't know
that.
Everything that they did as urban Indians, they worked it out of there and this woman was behind
it. At any
rate, I had not agreed to any meeting, but I went and spoke to everyone there. And I've learned
since then
that most good leaders will allow input from their followers. That's a trait of an excellent leader
-- of
someone who has earned the respect of most of his or her followers.
Will Reed
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
It took weeks, months, to establish a relationship,
because I was going in and out of the city, as well as handling other assignments. The timing
was
everything as to when you went to a particular town, a particular community. Key things would
come up, sometimes a meeting with the governor or a meeting of all the Indians or a meeting
with AIM
representatives. The key is constantly working on developing a
relationship --
developing trust levels. Some people are not interested in trust levels because they go by
authority. If you
go in and say you're in the Justice Department and that you're an authority figure, you're not
going to get
anywhere. Most people resist that, especially so-called militant minorities. They've been
stepped-on so
much it's incredible; they don't want to hear that, so you have to work on it.
Wallace Warfield
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
Question:
Tell me a little bit about how you
go about building trust, especially with the white community.
Answer:
Well, one way that it happens is that many of the cities in which CRS intervenes – or has
interventions – are repeats. So, you know, Silke has probably been into wherever – Aurora, let’s
say – thousands of times over the last 15 years that she’s been in Denver. After a while, people
get to know you, and so trust gets built up over what you did in the past. People trust you from
that standpoint, and that’s one way that it happens. Another way it happens is to go in and
suggest to the establishment, "Gee, Police Chief Jones, why don’t you call Chief Johnson in
so-and-so city. You’re all members of the Association of Chiefs of Police. Give him a call and
talk to him about what we did.” Often times, that would even happen without your having to
suggest that. So you make your phone calls, that you’re going to intervene, so there’s usually a
lapse time of a day or two. By the time you get there, that police chief may have already checked
you out.....
Question:
Have you ever had a problem where you weren’t trusted
because of your race?
Answer:
Sure. I did an intervention in one of the bigger midwestern cities. Again, it was a situation of
police using excessive force. It was a mediation, and I don’t think the police chief trusted me; I
think he felt that I was not neutral. So I think there was a situation where the mediation broke
down. I don’t know that it broke down completely because the police chief didn’t trust me; I
think there were other factors involved....
Question:
Were you able to get around that?
Answer:
Again, without fully knowing the real reason the mediation broke down, it’s hard to say. I
was there on two occasions for relatively short intervals, for maybe two days. It’s hard to say,
without a lot of discourse in between the actual sessions, what aspect of this had to do with the
fact that he didn’t trust me. I don’t think he would have ever said that, and I would have had to
attempt to ferret that out in some form or fashion, which would have been difficult to do without
more exposure to him and more feedback.
Dick Salem
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
We would discuss the options. You’re probably going to get better answers on that question
from the people who are in the field day in and day out, rather than a regional director.
Sometimes, staff would do things that they shouldn’t do. Certainly during Wounded Knee,
people were asking us to smuggle things in. Sometimes we would, staff would do that because
we thought it would help out in the long run. That’s how you deal with trust, that’s how you
get people to talk to you, bringing food into Wounded Knee. Sometimes you couldn’t do it.
But you had to do it at Wounded Knee, where it was important that they had some gasoline so
responsible leaders could move their motor vehicles between these bunkers where armed people
were, so they could communicate with them and control the shooting. So we knew when they
were siphoning gas from the tanks of our cars, that’s how it was going to be used. So we
didn’t fight it. We just tried not to get caught on the road with out gas on the way back, which
would happen from time to time. So you’re there -- you couldn’t do it, and you shouldn’t
have done it, but you did it because you knew in the end it was going to be helpful.
Silke Hansen
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
How were you able to build it and sustain the trust of the parties that were involved?
Answer:
I think part of it is that I tried to show some experience, some expertise that might be useful. I made it clear that it was their choice about whether or not to trust me, and at the same time I tried hard not to over-commit or over-promise what I could do. Over a period of time, we just got to know each other. With some of those white parents on the biracial council, it was just the fact that I was there every day. And they knew that they could call me at midnight if they needed to. That created a certain sense of trust . For many of them, I was practically the only "outside" contact they had -- "outside" in terms of being someone they knew who was intimately involved in the internal operation of the process.
The other thing that I ended up finding was a key tool in generating trust with somebody like school officials, and even police, is that I tried to be at the court hearings and I took notes and made sure that I got copies of things like court orders , or anything that was issued in writing. I was amazed at how often that information or those documents never got to the local school building. So that in many cases, I was one of the primary sources of accurate information--I was sort of a one person rumor control system. I knew what the accurate information was, when no one else did. So that, I think, did a lot to help gain me some credibility and trust. But again, it's a gradual process. At first I was maybe tolerated at best. After a while I would try to find people to talk to and see whether I could have some input with, and then eventually people actually approached me for assistance, including the principal. It was a gradual process.
| Angel Alderete
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
I'd make contact with someone who was working with these kids,
and he would take
me in there. Of course, they immediately see that I'm not African American, so there's a lot of
questions about, "Whose
side are you going to be on?" So I said, "Look. The only way we can get past that is for you to
try me out,
and then I'll come back and talk to you." I didn't dare bring in an African
American worker with me, because the response would be, "Look at you! You need that guy to
come in
here and talk to us. You can't do it on your own." So I kept going back and eventually the guys
agreed that maybe we ought
to get together and talk about the issues.
In the meantime, there was a high school principal that agreed to work with me, as well as an
African
American gang worker. There was another school representative as well, an
African American, that agreed to work with us to bring these kids together and help determine
what could be
done. They had a much greater influence on those kids than I ever could. So there was an
agreement:
"Let's confront those cops and see what we can do about this whole situation."
Angel Alderete
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
It's just a shooting-the-breeze kind of thing and it builds
a
lot of the trust -- as long as you don't preach to them. In some instances you
even say, "Yeah, that guy's an idiot. He got what he deserved. But maybe you should take a
different approach."
And I used to tell them, "I remember when I'd get a call from a police officer
and he arrested one of my guys and I said, 'Oh yeah?' 'Yeah. But the guy getting out of the car
fell and he bumped his head on the floor and hit his head on the stairs.'" So you let them know
that you're aware of all their little tricks, but you don't condemn them except by
maybe suggesting that there are better ways of doing things.
One of the hardest things in talking to these guys was getting myself
out of a certain role on the one hand, and the other one, preaching. They don't tolerate preaching
very well.
It's like they're daring you to train them. If you can sit and have a beer with these guys, though,
sometimes they start to understand what you're trying to say. But again, it takes time.
The allowances should be made by the agency and not be considered as a waste of
time. "My God!
Angel Alderete
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
But I was called in there, and the fellow who set
up
the situation was Texan and he took me down there the first time, and then it was up to me. That
means that I had to go back several times before they said, "Yeah, let's sit down and really do it."
Although I had agreed to mediate, they wanted to find out who I was. That's the way it
happened. With Nevada, both of us went in at the same time, so that
was really no problem of trust.
The thing of trust is one of the things where you go in there and you say, "My name is so-and-so
and I'm with the Federal Government, and I'm here to help." And they say, "Yeah, okay. How
long is it going to take you to make us believe that you're going to try to help us?" And that's
true in every case. It doesn't really matter if I go in there from the very beginning or if I go in
there after this other guy. He's already laid down some level of trust, and there's sort of a
carry-over
of that trust onto me. So I never really saw that as a problem and I never met that as a
problem. In fact, I never thought about it. The guy says, "Come on in." I came in and we
started working and although we discussed potential problems, potential "problem people" and
certainly the issues, we didn't ask, "Are they going to trust us?" and these sorts of
things.
Angel Alderete
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
I was aware that he
represented a certain culture of white police, and that I had to approach him in such a way. But
with them, I had to first find out, "Who's this guy? What does he do? What is he known to have
done? How is he known to approach people? What is his attitude toward..." All of these other
kinds of things, so that I had a picture of this guy when I went in to see him, and therefore I could
approach him in such a way that he didn't kick me out of his office.
And at the same time, I needed to try to talk his language. I'm not going to totally be able to
speak his
language, but I can show him that I understand some of the things that are happening within the
system and also try to put myself in such a position that he's willing to listen to me and willing to
talk to me. Now that's extremely difficult, but sometimes it happens. And it takes time. You
know, this whole thing about drinking their ugly coffee with them all of the time... I don't know
if
you've had that opportunity. I've had bad coffee. And you've got to sit there and talk. It takes a
lot of visits to get the guy to say, "Well maybe this guy isn't going to try to do something to
me afterall."
And you always keep away from media. Not that the media's going
to come rushing to you on a case and want to know what earth-shaking thing is happening there,
because the kind of cases that we get involved with just aren't that earth-shaking, except for the
people that you're dealing with. But, there are some times where the media wants to get into it,
and you have to slow them down. When you slow them down, they go away and they usually
never come back.
Leo Cardenas
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
You talked just a few minutes ago about how you were able to speak the language of
the authorities, and that tells me that you were able to establish some level of trust. How
important is trust in your role, and how were you able to develop it in this case?
Answer:
Trust is everything. You know sometimes, as mediators, or even in some other roles, if we
don't assume that we know enough about the subject, and about the common interests, it is not
there. I always assume that one of the reasons I was hired was because I brought certain skills
and expertise to the table and then I was just sort of thrown into the lion's den rather quickly and
was able to perform really well.
Question:
Now I'm sure that you have some special techniques that you were able to use. You said that
you were able to speak the language and so that made them feel comfortable with you. Give us
an example of what type of languages were you using, what things were said, and when?
Answer:
Talking to the media officials' side, I was able to convince them that I did know the
community. I was able to tell my own story of how I went to school,
how I got to the university and why I got to the university, and eventually graduated, and
what I had done to become, you know at the time, the only Hispanic in a management
position. That I think was impressive to them and the fact that I showed a lot of honesty as to
what the positions of the minority community were and what the consequences would be if
something else came out -- a different outcome.
Leo Cardenas
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
How do you get over that
hurdle where they're saying, "Look, you probably are just one of them, you're on their side. Why
should I even talk to you?"
Answer:
One of the pluses and minuses of working for the US Department
of Justice, particularly with anything that has the potential for violence, is that they will listen to
you. Some assumptions are made that by coming from the Department of Justice, we will
bring in law enforcement, or some type of adjudication. And needless to say, we do not say
that we will not do these things, because if that is the only resolution, we'll go to those resources.
So we're able to get a lot of information from them with that particular handle. On the other
hand, if you go to the minority community
and the US department of Justice is the focus, they immediately say, "You're the F.B.I.," or
nowadays, "You're INS." They clam up and inevitably, someone within the group will actually
make an issue of the fact that we're from the Department of Justice, so we have to overcome
those things. If that is the issue, and it's visible to us that whoever has brought it up has
predominated for the time being, we'll leave the meeting. Then we'll
call other individuals and meet with them separately and work our way back into the dispute.
Question:
Do you call other individuals outside of their community group?
Answer:
No. We'll call people that we have known, who are in the group. We'll say, "Well, let your
group settle whether or not they want us and in the meantime we'll go talk to the police
department. Generally, by that evening, we'll find a way of talking to one of
the leaders and say, "Since earlier today, this is what we've learned." And a lot of times, the
disputes that they're working are actually public disputes, and just about everybody has some
idea about what's going on. There's usually a lot of available information and we're
able to gain a lot of it very quickly. So we're able to bring a lot of
information very quickly and we can convince them that we do have that ability to bring a new
focus on the dispute. They hadn't even thought about that.
Bob Ensley
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
Speaking of trust, lets talk about how you
gained trust in this case and how significant you think trust is in general.....
Answer:
It's extremely important in this business to be honest. Tell people only what you can do.
Don't say what the Department of Justice is going to do, don't say what Mr. Hilliard's going to
do. Say what you yourself are going to do. If you can't do it, then say, "No, I can't do this." If
you say you're going to do it and some inhibitor gets in the way, tell them, "You know I made an
attempt to do it, but I couldn't because..." Another thing: don't be seen consorting with the ladies. That's something that you cannot do in this
business and maintain any credibility. In any type of business you cannot consort with women
that you meet. You know, during the struggle, most people stay at hotels or motels and some of
the things that I've seen over the years have destroyed a lot of people's credibility and reputation.
Sometimes they will try you. A group in Mississippi sent two of the most beautiful women to
my motel in Memphis. I mean, they were gorgeous ladies. I was in the dining room and I saw
them. I had my dinner and I went back to my room, and about an hour later somebody knocked
on my window and said, "Mister, do you have any battery cables?" I said, "Yes, but just give
me a chance to put a shirt on." So I went out and they said, "Well, we know you're there by
yourself and we just thought you needed some company. You know, we're here alone too......."
so they'll set you up. Another thing: don't be pretentious and dress like they do. Never be
pretentious and again, let them do the talking and you listen and you take notes. After it's all
over you say, "Well, I sure thank you because without that information I don't know which
direction I would be able to go. Never borrow any money from local officials, and
never let people give you gifts or favors. I don't even accept a Coca Cola from the sheriff. Now
when we go into a real crisis area, the riots in Georgia for instance, it's the obligation of the
sheriff to pick up the tab for all the food that's being served. In the time of curfew you have to
eat where they eat because otherwise you're not going to eat because the restaurants are closed.
With that exception I don't go in wanting the sheriff, the chief of police, or anybody do anything
for me. No you don't accept small favors. And tell people the truth. For example, sometimes I
would say to them, "Well, I'd rather not go to the meeting because I know there's some people
there that I wouldn't want to be seen with." Your support or association with certain people
tends to give them elevated status, a little beyond where they need to be. These rascals don't
need to promote themselves at your expense. So just tell them no, I can't go at this time. And if
you tell them you're leaving town, leave town. If you tell them you're going to be staying, make
sure you're staying there. Don't lie to people. These little things are where you gain trust.
Bob Hughes
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
Some of the other things that are happening are that they're getting to
know me and the agency, and I'm establishing a relationship with them, and I hope this is the
basis of some degree of trust. The way that I pose my questions and the way that I'm not
accusing them of being judgmental, trying to get as objective of an answer as possible. I think
that's important at this stage. That's one of the things that's taking place. Also, in order to get
answers from them, I may be, to a certain extent, interpreting to a limited degree the positions
from the other side. That's a dangerous sort of thing to do, but in order to get their views of
something, I may need to say, "I have heard, or understand, or was told, that so and so had
happened, and they're very concerned about it. Are you aware of this?" That sort of thing. So
it's the beginning of communication through me as a third party, but I keep that at a minimum at
this stage.
Question:
It sounds like trust is very important in that initial assessment. How were you able to gain
the
trust of the parties?
Answer:
Okay, good question. Each time you go back to them, you're saying the same things, you're
consistent. Consistency is important. And that can be a laborious process, but I usually start in
going back over what I may have gone over with them before. "And as you may recall, the
Community Relations Service is this and not that." After a certain amount of repetition, they
begin to hear the same things consistently. Then when we finally get together, I say the same
things again, and both sides are hearing it together. He knows that they know that he knows that
they know. That sort of thing is building a basis for communication.
Question:
Now at the same time that you're building trust between you and the various parties, what are
you doing to build the trust between the various parties themselves?
Answer:
I'm not necessarily doing that at this point. I'm trying to build a relationship with me, get me
accepted, to empower me to be in a position to get them together. But in the back of my mind is
that joint meeting out there, in which they're face to face and interpreting issues themselves, not
through me. Hopefully they're consistent with what I may have alluded to, but of course they go
much further than I would have.
Will Reed
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
She
told me to talk
to the people and tell them about myself, which I did, and we went into answering a few
questions, and I
just laid it out. I said, "I don't know what the situation is here. I don't have any idea, I just heard
there's
been an alleged suicide." She liked the fact the I used the word "alleged", because they were all
very
smart people. They were all weighing my words so that they would know whether or not I was
coming in
with the typical rhetoric that a lot of bureaucrats had come in and given them. If it had been that
way, I
would have been dismissed and thought of as somebody who had just come to placate the mayor,
the City
Manager, and the rest of them. She found out that I wasn't there to placate anybody and that I
didn't know
a lot about the situation. But I was going to learn more in the days ahead, meeting with the
police chief
and mayor and sheriff and going to the scene where the young man was hanged and everything
else.
Will Reed
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
So you
never go in
with the idea that since you are a trained mediator, that you're going to be able to snow somebody
about
your level of expertise or competence or anything else. The key to all of this is being yourself.
People will
see that, for the most part. And when they do see that, they're more willing to trust you. But
when you go
in and try to let them think that you have some special knowledge, which you may have, it won't
work.
They're going to have to conclude that you have that special knowledge on their own. You can't
convey
the message to them that, "Oh. I'm special." Because all that does is turn them off.
And in hostile situations, the last thing you need is to have people turned off
out here in the streets. But once they feel that you might be of substance, then they're willing to
take a
chance on you. And that's how all this stuff happens. I don't care who said what. This is how all
this stuff happens. People have to feel some kind of degree of confidence in you that you can
help them.
Now in some instances, there are individuals who are not going to fall for you because they
don't
want to see you. There are those people out there who don't want to see any progress made, we
just
can't assume in going into a situation that everybody wants to work this out and that everybody
wants to
"come to yes". They don't want to.
Wallace Warfield
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
Question:
How did you diminish tension between very hostile parties?
Answer:
I don’t know. I guess there were a number of different techniques. One way would be to
actually bring people into a forum where they could hear what the other person was saying,
absent of the kind of rhetorical flourishes that would often-times take place in the other forum.
So, in one situation in that midwestern city I mentioned earlier, the local militant, who was given
to walking into the City Council chambers and completely disrupting the City Council meeting,
but had to be escorted or carried out by the police – that, and activities like that, defined who he
was in the minds of the white establishment, which created a certain amount of tension. So what
we were offering was a different forum for him to be heard. The response was, "He’s going to
act up.” "Well, you’ve got to trust us that he’s not going to take that particular stance.” And
then that’s your job, as the intervener, to assure that that doesn’t happen, to a certain extent.
So, often-times you’d hear things: "You never told me that before.” "You never gave me the
chance to talk to you like that.” When you start hearing that dialogue, you can start pulling out. I
mean, you can start literally pulling yourself out of the triad. They’re talking to each other;
they’re now talking from the heart about what they didn’t say to each other, over all of these
years that they could have been talking. "I didn’t know you felt this way.” "Well, you weren’t
listening.” So, that’s one way. CBMs are another way – Confidence-Building Measures. It’s
another way of doing it: "So, demonstrate to me that you’re serious about making some change,
and then I’ll respond.” Typical in the international arena, but Confidence-Building Measures
can also be demonstrated in local, domestic issues as well. So that’s another way of doing it.
The classic building-block approach – the whole way you build trust.....
Dick Salem
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
Residents got a
hold of a confidential memo that said in two weeks, construction of a new dining room was to
begin as the first step of the reorganization. This was in total violation of our agreement. I had
assured the inmates that this wouldn’t happen. I phoned and called the deputy director who
said, "No, this shouldn’t be happening. I didn’t know that they were going to head that way,
but I guess they plan to.” I then phoned the commissioner and said, "It looks like we are going to
have to stop mediation. What I’d like to do is meet with you and the support team to the
inmates.” I rented a room at the Holiday Inn for the next morning and we met there at eight
o’clock. The BBDCO support group from Minneapolis was there. The lawyer for the
Hispanics was there, about seven of us. We met with the commissioner and we told him what
had happened. He was furious.
Now I’ll tell you what was going on. The deputy commissioner was an alcoholic. I
suspected something when I saw him dancing with a young blonde one night at the tower of the
St. Paul Hilton, where I used to stay when I was in St. Paul. I foolishly said hello to him, and he
didn’t even acknowledge me. I figured something was going on. He’d been on health leave a
few times. The Commissioners said, "I’m going to fire him and I’m going to remove the
superintendent too."
As we left he said, "I want mediation to continue, so I’m going to remove them. I’m going to
appoint Orville Pung acting deputy and his only job is going to be to supervise this. I’m going
to remove the superintendent and who else do you recommend go?" I said, "Don’t remove the
superintendent." Let Orville Pung decide that one. There I was giving him advice, which
seemed to be appropriate at the time. He was so angry he was going to fire half of them. Orville
Pung came in and we continued mediation without a problem. The mediator was finally
controlling the process. Pung, incidentally, went on to become Commissioner of Corrections.
Dick Salem
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
Question:
Were you ever able to do anything to
improve your credibility with the blacks?
Answer:
Oh sure, but they just couldn't acknowledge it. They got good things out of this, just like
everybody else did, and they were intelligent. You don't expect people to trust you because they
are still incarcerated and you are outside. When you leave them, you go and meet with the man
upstairs and they know that. So I don't make any pretenses. I try to gain their trust, but I expect
only limited success. At St. Cloud, mediation was the best thing the residents had going for them
at that point in time. And their trusted outside advisors told them that. That's why they were
ready to discontinue the lock in. If you have no credibility whatsoever, then you might as well
pack it in and leave.
Question:
Is there anything else you did to build credibility that you haven't mentioned?
Answer:
At one point, I brought in Ellis McDougal
as a consultant. He was corrections commissioner in Georgia at the time and a consultant to
CRS. He met with Orville Pung. Being able to bring in that kind of guy is useful. You never
know if that helps or doesn't help the credibility, but I think it does.
I think one thing that was very important was always doing what I said I would do, when I
said I would do it. I found judges appreciated this, amazingly, when we did a court-referred
mediation. If I say I am going to call on Thursday afternoon, then I call on Thursday afternoon.
No postponements, no delays, and they do appreciate that. In this case too, if I said I was going
to do something, I did it.
Dick Salem
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
You begin to build your
information base, your assessment about what’s happening. Also during this time, you try to
build some trust and get some indication whether they would be receptive to your coming in. Or
you might just say, "we’re coming in.” You might say, "we’re coming in for this matter," or
you might say, "I’m going to be in the area anyway, I’d like to drop by and chat with you about
it when I’m in your city."
Dick Salem
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
Answer:
Sure, race was an issue for anyone who
went into the field and interacted with other races. It’s a fact of life. Factors that influence that
were, were you new on a scene, how did you compose yourself, what were the tension levels,
who were you meeting with locally, who were you with from your own staff, who invited you in,
who was there from the community? All of these things could be factors in how you were
treated. Like mediation of any kind, your job was to build trust. You had to build trust. If you
didn’t, you couldn’t work effectively. Some will say "If you can’t build trust, get out of there
and go home.” Well, you can’t always get out of there.
Question:
What do you do?
Answer:
You do the best you can. You can’t tell in advance how it will work out.
Dick Salem
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
Question:
So that is a way to build trust?
Answer:
Well, you give everybody an excuse; you cover both sides. You leave yourself exposed, but
you know they want you there, so nobody’s going to call you on it. It lets everybody save face
as well.
Nancy
Ferrell
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
I met with them at their regular meeting and then I would have a schedule when I met
with people individually. The group meetings were more to create trust with
me. They would know me, they knew that I was really interested in what was going on.
Interested enough to know what their group was about and spend time with
them.
Nancy Ferrell
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
One of the things that I tell people is that, "I have as much
responsibility to protect your interests as I do my interests.” That if I violate anybody in the
process then I'm not holding up my end of the bargain. That if I do anything to diminish the
institution, the students, the faculty, anybody, if I do anything that diminishes anyone then I have
violated my commitment to you. And if you see that, or perceive that, then I want you to tell me.
If it's occurred, I respond to that in a way that says I need to fix that, I need to do something about
that. For example, if you've told someone that you aren't there to
investigate them and it shows up in the newspaper, or the Justice Department shows up to
investigate university’s treatment of minorities, well that can take away your trust.
Nancy Ferrell
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
The media always wants us to investigate, and no matter how often you tell them, "We
aren't investigating,” it shows up in the headlines that Justice is there to investigate.
You have to respond immediately back to the institution or the minorities, or whoever is involved
and say, "I know that's happened and I'm sorry. There is nothing I can do about it, but this is
what I told them and this is still the reality." I guess the other part of that is learning not ever to
become defensive. If someone challenged me on something, then I try to respond to that in terms
of if they believed that was the way I was acting, then I would respond to that and make
changes.
Nancy
Ferrell
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
Question:
What about in the context of the case? Do you do any training, especially with a
minority group, in order to somewhat level the playing field?
Answer:
I would talk to the establishment and the minority group about learning how to clarify issues,
and begin to strategize. I'll coach and train them. I'll sit in private with them, in kind of a
teaching mode, and explain to them how to respond to a system and get what you need in a
productive way. If you're going to do some destructive things, you can do that on your own. If
you want to be productive, then I want to help you with that. A lot of the coaching, teaching, and
technical assistance was not behind the scenes because I made sure everyone knew I was doing
that. It wasn't undercover, I wasn't sneaking around and helping. Some of the establishment
people weren't any more sophisticated about the issue than the community groups were, so I'd do
the same thing for them.
Generally, the issues were being generated out of the community because the
establishment says they don't have any problems. The teaching and the coaching on the
establishment side was to help them understand the dynamic of perception. I didn't feel like I had
to make them fess up and say, "Yeah, we violated this rule," or, "We've not done all we can do."
If you have to get them to confess, you're not going to get them to the table. If I could get them
to say, "Sure, we could do better," then that's what I was after. My next goal is to help them
emphasize and say, "We're not doing that. But, if they believe we're doing it, I understand why
they're so frustrated." That was my next indication that we were moving in the right direction.
Question:
Can you verbalize how you moved in that way?
Answer:
It took time establishing that trust relationship. The community would be saying the same
thing, "They're not going to be fair or honest. They're not going to deal with us with integrity,
they never have." To be able to come to some point and say to the community, "They have
assured me that they're coming to the table in good faith. Now I'm going to take them at their
word. Are you going to at least give it a shot?" The same thing with the establishment. It was a
matter of being able to verbalize for the community at first, this is how they feel. "If that
happened to you, how would you feel?" "Well, I'd feel awful. But we didn't do that." "Well, I'm
not saying you did. But if they believe you did, they feel that." That worked.
Question:
You're doing this before the group meeting?
Answer:
Yes. Right. One of my decisions about whether they were ready to meet at the table was
whether or not I could get any glimmer of empathy from all sides, however many sides there
were. If I couldn't get some awareness or sensitivity to other party's position, I was reluctant to
go to the table. I might continue shuttling back and forth and come up with some kind of an
agreement, but if you can't create empathy, you can't have a relationship. Without that, mediation
is not going to work. If there's no reason for us to relate, there's no reason for me to empathize
with you.
Silke Hansen
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
What did you do to reduce the initial distrust from the corporations?
Answer:
Good question. Even though we might not have been part of their private caucuses, we did meet with them in caucus. So that part of it was their realization that we kept our confidence when we said we would. I think they began to recognize that kind of shuttle diplomacy, and in this case, not just shuttle diplomacy but shuttle telephone diplomacy, that we were facilitating, was in fact bringing the two parties closer. I think they began to see our even handedness, that we didn't try to push them or pressure them into accepting deals or making agreements with which they were uncomfortable. The more time we spent on this, the more they began to realize that we were, in fact, facilitating and not trying to coerce them into accepting the position being presented by the other party and vice versa.
| Angel
Alderete
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
but you're still going to have to prove yourself all the way down the line. Whereas the
guy who has had the experience, he can talk the language all the way down, he doesn't have to
prove
anything.
Angel Alderete
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
Question:
So you ended up having meetings for
quite a long time?
Answer:
Right. It all had to do with building some kind of trust in what it was that we wanted to do.
Angel Alderete
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
How did you get around that?
Answer:
Well, I stressed what we were all working toward the same goal, and that kind of allayed
their concerns. But
hey, if you're not a cop, you're not a cop and you're not with them. So you have to do a lot of
talking with them -- you
have to have coffee with them, or go out for a beer. You know,
having a beer with some of these cops did a lot more than sitting down with them with the
groups. Because when you're having a beer, the mood is a lot more relaxed. You can talk about
what it is that people
are thinking.
Leo Cardenas
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
What types of things specifically were you able to do to sustain the
trust level over the six month period?
Answer:
A lot of it was done locally. I was actually stationed in Dallas. The agency was able to identify
other minorities who at the time were just starting in the media, but had actually hosted minority
programming. Another example was that we were able to bring some minority writers to the
meetings and explain the benefits of minority programs, and that minorities would listen to such
programs. So we were able to work with the minority group, and eventually, they were able to
show that the type of proposals that were on the table were realistic -- that it would be a benefit
to everyone.
Leo Cardenas
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
They see the disputes as something
they can handle, even though in a lot of cases we eventually find out that they haven't been
handling it for a long time. But in their minds, they think that they've been handling it and
they've been handling it correctly. And as long as they have that attitude, they don't allow
anyone else to come in. The other is the aura that exists in many of these groups, but particularly
for public agencies that would deal with the idea that an outsider is coming in without them first
identifying the outsider and paying for those services. It's just not existent in their day to day
work, but in the way that they work and the way that they think. So we have to work our way in,
really wiggle our way into a trust level and the fact that we are able to actually help them out.
Question:
Talk about how you do that.
Answer:
Initially talk about the fact that we have a relationship with the
other side, and of course, that in itself becomes skeptical, the fact that we were able to have some
type of relationship. And the question that comes up is if you have a relationship, how can you
be neutral, (although it's never worded, it's never put into that) how can you help if you already
made up your mind that they're correct and we're not and you already possibly have a solution?
So we try to show them where the common interest is to that dispute
and who can resolve it. And in a lot of cases the parties themselves have not looked at other
resources.
Leo Cardenas
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
The other is gaining
trust
and working with them so that we can determine their priorities. We must also continue
to ask them how we can best be of service to this dispute, and determine where the resolution
lies.
Question:
What about getting trust not just between you and the parties, but
between the parties themselves? Like between the minority groups and the majority groups.
Presumably at the beginning of these conflicts there's a high level of distrust. What did you do?
Answer:
The biggest obstacle for us is gaining the trust of the minority group, because there's distrust
among themselves, first of all. Despite the fact they have years of history, they don't come
together that often. So what we find is that they don't really know each other as well as they
think they do. And as I mentioned before, their share of time to give to the dispute or to give to
the community, is very small. So we work a lot within the group itself so that it can coalesce
and it can focus on the issues.
Bob Hughes
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
You told me a little earlier about how you
build trust between yourself and various parties. What specifically are you able to do to gain
trust between the parties, if anything?
Answer:
There's certainly the assignment of particular tasks to joint committees. That builds trust and
working relationships between those involved in that. When they come back in with an agreed
upon, joint position, then that's communicated to the other. I don't know that I do anything
specific.
Question:
Those tasks are interesting though, so you come up with those on your own?
Answer:
Yes. It may be very obvious. I look for opportunities to assign a joint committee to work on
this, especially overnight.
Bob Hughes
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
Did you have a special technique that you used to try to build trust
between the parties?
Answer:
Getting them to work together, that is part of the mediation process. Maybe in joint
committees, or task groups, which seem to be a very productive area for developing
collaboration. I didn't have any particular exercises, for example, or training in that way that
would have the effect of building trust.
Julian
Klugman
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
To handle crowd control like at the Republican Convention, we spent a year building
those relationships. If you go in cold, it's more difficult. You find out who's going to protest at
the Republican Convention. So that when things did go wrong, they knew us.
Efrain Martinez
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
If a party comes to the table and
asks you a question that you're not quite ready to divulge the
answer to, how do you approach that situation?
Answer:
A lot of times people ask me, "What did he or she tell you?"
"I can't reveal that information." But I'll say, "Look, there
are some things, because of the way we do our work, we'd best
keep confidential." I'm really trying to help everybody. I
wouldn't tell her everything you told me, so I'm not going to
tell you everything she told me."
Question:
Trust building is very important here. What do you do to break
the ice to ensure that trust is being made between you and the
parties?
Answer:
It's a step at a time. You trust me to this one point, and
I'll trust you to that one point. I'll keep trusting you until
there's a reason not to trust you. You keep trust in me.
Hopefully there will be trust in me all the way.
Manuel Salinas
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
Question:
Can you talk some more about what you specifically did in
building trust, particularly among el Comite?
Answer:
You have to learn how to get along with the people. You can't
sit down with them, and immediately expect them to talk to you like you're one of them.
You're trying to lead them in a direction, but you can only push so
hard. So what you do is just listen mostly. You listen and you converse, and if need be, you go
to the lounge and have a beer afterwards with one of the leaders. And they begin to
build trust. Then you provide information and resource information
that would be helpful to the group. We have a lot of that in CRS. So you provide that
information. Then they feel like you are, to a degree, on our side. They know that we're on their
side only to provide that information. But you don't tell them "you must do this or you must do
that." Or "I'm going to tell the chief that this is
what you're going to do." Because whatever they tell me, they tell me, and that's where it stays.
Whatever the chief tells me, I don't tell them, they can search that out themselves. If
they desire to push, then it's up to them to push, not for me. But anyway, I just established that
rapport over a period of time, over weeks. We got along fine, if they
needed resources for education purposes, I brought that along and we talked about it and they
formed groups on that and they formed groups on employment and then they went on for their
election. Just like any community group that wants to do something, they want us to be
active as they get into various things. This Comite ended up doing that.
Manuel Salinas
[Full Interview] [Topic Top]
Question:
What kinds of relationships did you have with the Native
Americans at Wounded Knee?
Answer:
Good.
Question:
How did you build those?
Answer:
By the job we did, by bringing in the things they needed. Such as the medical supplies, gas,
and so on. They weren't talkative. I don't know if it's a Native American trait or something, but
they are not really that talkative. They don't establish a real friendly relationship with you.
They didn't with us, but we got along ok. There was no conflict.
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